I’ll come right out and say it: Chiyo/Sayuri didn’t sound like a woman to me at all. The voice of her character is cold and clinical, which could be mistaken for the stereotype that Asians are stoic. They aren’t. In addition, I didn’t feel like her love of the Chairman was genuine since women have a tendency to be much more gushy when it comes to matters of the heart.

However, the above had absolutely no negative impact on my enjoyment of the story. I absolutely loved the descriptions of life in her okiya and becoming a geisha. I knew geisha weren’t exactly prostitutes, but this book did a great job of explaining their lives in clear language that is easily accessible to Western readers.

After finishing the book, I watched some eating show on the food channel. The host of the show spent a night in a hotel that included entertainment by geisha. During his meal, two women served him in fancy hair and kimonos but modern makeup. After dinner, one did a dance while the other played the shamisen. It was pretty cool.

marydell | July 21, 2003 5:41 PM

Still finishing the book. Yeah, the voice is striking me as pretty clinical at times, but that doesn't translate to me as "[not sounding] like a woman to me at all." It has, however, sounded a bit like someone reporting on the culture rather than living it -- almost anthropological. Fascinating, but not necessarily heartfelt. I guess the author could justify it be saying "well, she wasn’t born to this culture, so she is an outsider," but I think that'd be pushing it.

Sarah | July 22, 2003 11:09 AM

See, I thought the -- stiltedness, I guess, that's what I noticed here and there -- made it sound more like an actual translation (it reminded me of Blindness, phrases that were a little bit off what I'm used to hearing), and more like a woman from an earlier era recounting her tale (like actresses spoke c. WWII -- the less informal usage of language than we speak today -- and, while I assume not everyone (probably hardly anyone) spoke like that, my idea of people from that era is completely formed by movies, so it sounds natural to me). It made me think of the letters my 92-year-old great aunt sends at Christmas.

What broke the rhythm for me was when she would lapse into a more "conversational" tone, and it came off as a contrived author's trick. When Nobu helps her when Gion's closed down, for instance, she says (I'm paraphrasing badly here), "He said Arashino could help me, you remember Arashino, he was at that party at the Baron's, Arashino makes the kimonos."

Gwen | July 22, 2003 2:25 PM

Wow. Very interesting comments so far. I've run into several very structured female minds, and these are exactly what Sayuri's voice reminded me of. It also seems to me that her clinical tone might be part of letting us know what it is that makes a successful geisha successful.

I finished Memoirs last night, and enjoyed it immensely. At the end of it, though, I had to sit and remember that it is in fact a fictional translation of a spoken recording of a geisha's memories. There are enough layers there that suspension of disbelief was easy for me, in fact in order to think about certain aspects of the novel I have to remind myself NOT to suspend it. The translations I've run into have plenty of archaisms, awkward "of course you remember"s, and other imperfections, and their existence in Memoirs means that Golden put them in there on purpose. It's so strange that Sayuri's a fictional character -- she's in my head now, better than many a character has been, and better than many real-life people I've known. This makes me want to read more of Golden's work.

Interestingly, the same translation artifacts that worked against Blindness for me are working for Memoirs, despite their being pure affectation on Golden's part. I'm more inclined to be forgiving: there's a part of my mind saying, "Hey, it's a translation of a conversational, recording. Cut him some slack." What can I say? he got me.

There was really only one time, thinking back, where I noticed the "strings," if you will, and that was the ice storm that held up Nobu and the Minister, giving the Chairman and Sayuri their first chance to be together in a long while. For some reason I felt the author's manipulation there, and it surprised me with its (relative) ham-handedness.

Anyway, I will definitely have to read Geisha, A Life. Great subject.

Rich | July 22, 2003 3:28 PM

In the interview with Arthur Golden Gwen linked to in the post, he said that he had gone through several drafts of the story in the third person. I have a feeling that some of the reporting feel to the book came from those drafts. In addition, explaining the life of a geisha so a Westerner could understand it probably added to its clinical tone of voice.

Where is everyone? This was such a huge book when it came out, I'm surprised the majority of our members aren't here in force because of having already read it. (I didn't read it before now only because I deliberately avoid hoopla.) Should I go back to spamming people with reminder e-mails?

marydell | July 22, 2003 8:03 PM

Unfortunately, Rich, this is Golden's first and only work. If it takes him as long to write the next one as Memoirs of a Geisha, it's going to be a long wait.

Speaking of structured minds, Chiyo/Sayuri explained several times that to be a successful geisha, you have to be clever. Did anyone find her clever? I never got beyond her clinical tone of voice to think much of her. However, I found Mameha to be an exceptional character and exactly what I would expect of a successful geisha.

marydell | July 22, 2003 8:12 PM

I did think she was clever, if nothing else for her turns of phrase. I liked the Tipsy House and all the rest.

My impression was that it was less important for a geisha to be clever than for her to be able to rigidly compartmentalize her thoughts, feelings, etc. The vast majority of men didn't care to discover who was beneath the surface -- even Nobu, who was, in many ways, an honorable, even exceptional, man, didn't stoop to think if what he wanted was the same things as what she wanted.

What fascinated me is the status that these women obviously ha in Japanese society. Is there an equivalent status in the Western world? The closest I could come up with would be the courtesans of pre-revolutionary France.

Sarah | July 23, 2003 11:34 AM

Still working through the book. It's fictional? Could have fooled me. Somehow I just pictured her dictating her story to Golden. Another illusion shattered. :^) Luckily that fact does not alter my enjoyment of what I've read so far.

I agree, marydell, so far I cannot think of anything Chiyo has done that would bear the mark of cleverness. But the maneuvering of Mameha does qualify.

sarah, your connection to courtesans seems like a good match. The only part I'm not sure about is how did average people feel about geisha. I believe average folk in Western society tended to look down on courtesans, but I have no idea how the Japanese felt. My vague impression is that they were more accepted on the surface as part of society, but behind closed doors, who knows.

Hunter | July 23, 2003 1:36 PM

Gwen, I'd just like to thank you for selecting this book and finally forcing me to pull it off my shelf and read it. Unfortunately, I should have done so before I left for three weeks in Rhode Island (although as it turned out, I wouldn't have had much time to read anyway). So I began the book Monday after driving 12.5 hours, and am trying to read voraciously in between loads of laundry. Enjoying the conversation so far, though, and I'll be back.

Andy | July 23, 2003 3:24 PM

Courtesan seems to be a good Western match for a geisha, but they only amount to not much more than prostitutes to noblemen. As Sayuri explains, geisha are artisans and entertainers who eventually move on to becoming kept women. Although they still go out to entertain, they save sexual favors for their dannas. I'm not sure the West has an equivalent. It might also be unique to Japan since I haven't heard stories about women living similar lives in other Eastern cultures.

Sayuri and others refer to Nobu as an honorable man, but I see him as an asshole. He's always surly and despite giving her a gift or two, speaks to her in a completely vile manner. I'd never have been successful as a geisha becuase I'd have told him to take his good arm and stuff it.

marydell | July 23, 2003 9:09 PM

I read Golden's book last year, and finished Iwasaki's book a few months ago. Yes, there were some parallels that one can chalk up to coincidence...I'm interested to see if her lawsuit against Golden will prevail or not.

Overall, I preferred the fictional accounting of Sayuri to Iwasaki's autobiography. I found it most difficult to believe she had such vivid and complete memories of her life at 3 years old. I can't remember what I had for breakfast, let alone what happened several decades ago.

Have you read Liza Dalby's nonfic accounting of geisha training?

coriander | July 31, 2003 12:53 AM

There's a lawsuit? In the interview with Golden I read, he made it seem like everything was fine and dandy with her.

To be honest, this is the first book I've ever read about geisha. It's a fascinating subject, and I'm amazed I managed to stay away from Memoirs for so long.

marydell | July 31, 2003 1:16 AM

Well, I can't find a record of a lawsuit filed anywhere by Iwasaki. But she alludes to a lawsuit against Golden in the book...as well as in an interview she had on the Today Show back in December. Who knows - she might have been riding the publicity wave to drum up book sales (thus says the cynical reader).

Read Liza Dalby's books, "Geisha" or "Kimono: Fashioning Culture." She writes with a detached, anthropologist's look at the geisha society and traditions. I thought it was a much better "true story" than Iwasaki's.

coriander | August 1, 2003 1:43 AM

does anybody know how i might get a hold of the astrology manual/i ching organizer that memoirs talked about? a version in english of course. it sounds like applied chinese astrology. any leads on how to find this would be good.
t.
:-)

thomas | November 19, 2003 3:02 PM

Ok so i will admit I have never written anything up in a chat room forum before, but this looked interesting, I picked up memoirs of a geisha at a use dbook store. I was not sure which way i would agree with this book. I fainally sat down nd read it, after two days i finished this book, and it was great reading. i needed to do research and find out about some of the termonolgy in the first few chapters, but i am just begging to become educated one might say.
So i just became aware this book was fictional, i thought when reading it, the book was complete nonfiction. i read over your opinions on the topic and i have decided, i liked the way golden puts the perspective of women in society. i was not sure a man would be able to reveal how woman truely felt. he seemed to be able to crawl under a womans skin, and truely articulate the feeling of a woman during her first time, and times after that with other men.
A fantasy ending made the perfect ending, if it had been anything else, there would hae been a prblem, such as other people disgruntled over the underdog not coming out on top.
Now to discuss the attitude portrayed in the book, one quick statement, every person feels upset or cinicle at a time, maybe she just felt that way more than anyone.

Kat | March 5, 2004 1:18 AM

I find this book to be very offensive to geisha. Mainly because of the detail that is given to mizuage. The way that Golden portrays mizuage is that it is something that ever geisha goes through, selling her virginity to the highest bidder. This is not true. In fact, mizuage happens only sometimes in current geisha communities. Mineko was not suing Golden to "[ride] the publicity wave to drum up book sales" because she filed the lawsuit before she even wrote her book. The lawsuit was for defamation, breach of contract and copyright violations. Mineko says that she only agreed to do the interview with Golden because she says they had an oral contract that her name would not be used. The geisha tradition is that of discretion and in using Mineko's name as his primary source for this book, the geisha community basically shunned Mineko and her reputation was tarnished. Mineko also has a problem with Golden disclosing personal information about her in publicity for the novel, including confidential information about, and misrepresenting, her own mizuage and how much was paid for her virginity. It is not just Mineko who was angered by the novel. The entire geisha community is worried that people will come to Japan from other countries, see geishas on the street and think that they have a price tag. They are also worried because it is so convincingly written in the first person that many people will regard it as fact, while it is not fact but fiction. The book will shape people's minds as to what geisha are (whether that is an accurate image or not).

amanda | April 16, 2004 8:05 PM